Justice is central to the teachings of the Bible—so why has it become so contested within Christianity?

In this episode of Holy Uncertain, hosts Lauren Ranzino and Chris McLeod are joined by priest, theologian, and author Fr. Joash Thomas to discuss how history, culture, and power have shaped the Western church’s understanding of justice, and what might be lost when care for the vulnerable becomes secondary to ideology or certainty.

Drawing from his own story—growing up in India as part of an ancient Christian tradition and later working within American politics—Joash offers a perspective that challenges the ways many of us have come to understand justice, faith, and what it means to follow Jesus.

This conversation invites a broader, more global view of Christianity—one that learns from traditions outside the Western church and re-centers the life and teachings of Jesus as a call to love, humility, and care for others.

If you’ve ever wondered why justice has become so complicated within the church—or felt disillusioned by the divide—this episode offers a thoughtful place to wrestle and reflect.

Continue to learn from Joash Thomas:
www.joashpthomas.com
Instagram: @joashpthomas
Substack: Masala Chai Theology with Fr. Joash P. Thomas
Read Joash’s Book:
The Justice of Jesus

Have a question or topic you want us to explore?
Email us: questions@holyuncertain.com
Holy Uncertain is a Blue Elevator production.

What can the study of stories teach us about the Bible?

In this episode of Holy Uncertain, hosts Chris McLeod and Lauren Ranzino are joined by mythologist, storyteller, and Executive Director of the Joseph Campbell Foundation, John Bucher, to explore how stories shape the way we understand faith, scripture, and the world around us.

Together, they unpack what “myth” really means—and why it has less to do with something being false and more to do with how humans make meaning. Through conversation spanning everything from Harry Potter to ancient texts, John invites us to reconsider how we read the Bible: not just as history to be proven, but as story that can transform the way we see ourselves, God, and the world.

Along the way, they wrestle with belief, doubt, and the role of storytelling in shaping a life of faith—asking what might become possible if we approached scripture with curiosity instead of certainty.

If you’ve ever felt stuck between taking the Bible literally or leaving it behind entirely, this conversation offers a different way forward.

Continue learning from John Bucher:
www.tellingabetterstory.com

Instagram: @tellingabetterstory
Joseph Campbell Foundation: https://www.jcf.org/

Read John’s Books:
The Storytelling Almanac: A Weekly Guide To Telling A Better Story
And many more.

Take John’s Courses:
The Shared Heroes’ Journey: Myth and Social Change
The Mystic Wizard of Oz

Have a question or topic you want us to explore?
Email us: questions@holyuncertain.com

Holy Uncertain is a Blue Elevator production.

In place of our usual episode this week, we’re offering a short Good Friday reflection—an invitation to pause, to grieve, and to sit with what is broken before rushing to what comes next.

Co-host Lauren Ranzino sits with the weight of a broken world, while holding onto both grief and hope.

Today, we take a beat.
We make space for what breaks our hearts.
And we remember: this is not the end of the story.

We’ll be back next week with a full episode.

Have a question or topic you want us to explore?
Email us: questions@holyuncertain.com

Holy Uncertain is a Blue Elevator production.

What is church actually supposed to look like?
In this episode of Holy Uncertain, hosts Lauren Ranzino and Chris McLeod are joined by pastor, author, and musician Tommy Preson Phillips to explore why so many people are rethinking the way church has been practiced.
Tommy, co-author of Invisible Jesus: A Book about Leaving the Church and Looking for Christ, shares why so many people are walking away from church—not because they’ve lost faith, but because they no longer see Jesus reflected in the systems they’ve inherited. Together, they examine how layers of tradition, power, and cultural assumptions have shaped modern church structures, and what it might look like to strip things back to something more honest, relational, and rooted in the way of Jesus.
From the early church’s radically inclusive communities to the rise of institutional models, this conversation wrestles with what’s essential, what might be worth letting go of, and how spiritual community could be reimagined today.
If you’ve ever felt disconnected from church but still long for faith, belonging, and a more authentic way of following Jesus, this episode offers a hopeful place to explore.

Continue to learn from Tommy Preson Phillips:
Substack
Instagram: @tommypresonphillips
Read Tommy’s Book:
Invisible Jesus: A Book about Leaving the Church and Looking for Christ by Scot McKnight and Tommy Preson Phillips
Listen to Tommy’s Music:
www.presonphillips.com

Have a question or topic you want us to explore?
Email us: questions@holyuncertain.com
Holy Uncertain is a Blue Elevator production.

Have our beliefs about God limited people with disabilities from living full lives?

In this episode of Holy Uncertain, hosts Lauren Ranzino and Chris McLeod are joined by disabled scholar-practitioner, author, and advocate Dr. Amy Kenny, who also serves as the director of the Disability Cultural Center at Georgetown University, to examine the ways Christian theology has often treated disabled people as broken, incomplete, or in need of fixing.

Together, they explore how ideas about the fall, healing, and heaven have shaped the church’s relationship to disability—and how those beliefs can reinforce ableism, even when intentions are good. Amy invites us to reconsider familiar biblical stories through the lens of disability theology, asking what we miss when disabled people are treated as objects of ministry rather than trusted theological voices.

This conversation challenges assumptions about healing, access, and belonging, while pointing toward a more expansive vision of the kingdom of God—one where disabled people are not sidelined, but centered.

If you’ve ever sensed that the church’s understanding of disability might be too narrow, this conversation offers a thoughtful place to reflect and learn from disabled wisdom.

Continue to learn from Dr. Amy Kenny:
Instagram: @dramykenny

Read Amy’s Books:
My Body Is Not a Prayer Request: Disability Justice in the Church
My Disability Is Divine: A Joyful Witness That Defies Ableist Nonsense

Learn more about the Disability Cultural Center at Georgetown:
https://disabilityculture.georgetown.edu/

Special thanks to Charlie French for the inspiration and for allowing us to showcase his art.
Find him on Instagram: @charliefrenchfineart
And visit our YouTube page to view his art at the top of this week's episode.

Have a question or topic you want us to explore?
Email us: questions@holyuncertain.com

Holy Uncertain is a Blue Elevator production.

Is evangelism always good news?

In this episode of Holy Uncertain, hosts Lauren Ranzino and Chris McLeod are joined by theologian, activist, and author Dr. Randy Woodley to rethink one of the most central practices in modern Christianity: evangelism.

Dr. Woodley, a theologian and longtime advocate for Indigenous wisdom in the church, invites us to consider how evangelism has often been shaped by Platonic assumptions rather than the teachings of Jesus. Together they explore the difference between sharing good news and imposing belief—and what a more humble, relational approach to faith might look like.

Instead of asking how to convert people, this episode asks a deeper question: what if the good news of Jesus looks less like persuasion and more like learning, listening, and mutual transformation?

If you’ve ever wondered whether the way Christianity has been shared reflects the heart of Jesus, this conversation offers a thoughtful place to reflect.

Continue to learn from Dr. Randy Woodley:
https://www.randywoodley.com/
Instagram: @eloheheagleswings
Substack

Read Randy’s Books:
Journey to Eloheh: How Indigenous Values Lead Us to Harmony and Well-Being
Indigenous Theology and the Western Worldview: A Decolonized Approach to Christian Doctrine
And Many More

Learn more and visit Eloheh:
https://www.eloheh.org/

Have a question or topic you want us to explore?
Email us: questions@holyuncertain.com

Holy Uncertain is a Blue Elevator production.

Is there a way for leaders to make things right after causing real harm?

In this episode of Holy Uncertain, hosts Lauren Ranzino and Chris McLeod are joined by Joshua Harris, author of I Kissed Dating Goodbye, to reflect on purity culture, the damage it caused, and what it looks like to confront the consequences of ideas that shaped an entire generation.

Together, they talk about the shame, fear, and distorted theology that purity culture embedded in so many of us—and what happens when a leader begins to listen to the people harmed by their work. Josh shares the long, uneasy process of rethinking his beliefs, stepping away from systems that rewarded certainty, and trying to respond with honesty rather than defensiveness.

This conversation doesn’t offer easy closure. Instead, it explores repentance as something slower, costlier, and more complicated than simply a public apology.

If you’ve ever wondered whether repair is possible after real harm has been done, this episode offers a thoughtful place to begin.

For more from Josh Harris:
https://joshharris.com
Instagram: @harris.josh

Listen to Josh’s Podcast:
Clear & Loud with Josh Harris

Have a question or topic you want us to explore?
Email us: questions@holyuncertain.com

Holy Uncertain is a Blue Elevator production.

Are you finding it hard to call yourself a Christian right now—even if you still love Jesus? What do you do when people who share your faith carry beliefs that feel impossible to reconcile?

In this episode of Holy Uncertain, Lauren Ranzino and Chris McLeod are joined by writer and journalist Sara Billups to explore how to navigate ideological and theological differences without defaulting to cutting people off—or shutting down curiosity.

Sara reflects on how fear-based frameworks from the 80s and 90s shaped so many of us, from rapture narratives and “Left Behind” anxiety to the way politics and religion have become tangled in the American church. Together, they talk about how these inherited theologies still live in our bodies and our communities—and how we can examine them honestly without losing each other.

If you’ve ever felt torn between conviction and connection, this episode offers thoughtful language for the way forward.

Continue to learn from Sara Billups:
www.sarabillups.com
Instagram: @sara.billups
Threads
Substack

Read Sara’s Books:
Nervous Systems: Spiritual Practices to Calm Anxiety in Your Body, the Church, and Politics
Orphaned Believers: How a Generation of Christian Exiles Can Find the Way Home

Have a question or topic you want us to explore?
Email us: questions@holyuncertain.com

Holy Uncertain is a Blue Elevator production.