"Revolutions are never won by the ruling class... if you want to fix healthcare, you have to be willing to accept a negative sum game. Someone is losing."

Why are self-funded employers still paying for healthcare on a "fee-for-service" basis, where every single transaction is billed separately with zero guarantee of a positive outcome?

My guests this week are Francois and Jeremy from XO Health, a new type of health plan built explicitly for self-funded employers. Instead of relying on traditional, opaque carrier networks (the "BUCAs"), XO Health is introducing a new accounting system for healthcare: the Care Package.

In this episode, we explore how XO packages an entire episode of care - from a knee replacement to the ongoing management of chronic diabetes or maternity - into a single, predictable, fixed price. We discuss how this model shifts financial accountability back to the provider (while also protecting them through embedded risk corridors and "mini-spec" policies), eliminates the perverse incentives of traditional networks, and ultimately allows employers to offer a health plan that employees actually want to use (complete with "hugs and kisses" for $0 out-of-pocket costs).

If you are an employer or a benefits consultant tired of 10% medical trend and unpredictable renewals, this episode provides a blueprint for how true risk-sharing can finally fix the system.

Thank you to our 2026 sponsors!

ParetoHealth: ParetoHealth empowers midsize employers with a long-term solution to reduce volatility and lower overall health benefits costs. Visit https://www.paretohealth.com/fully-insured-vs-self-funding-with-paretohealth-spencer-podcast/?utm_source=youtube&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=SelfFundedwSpencer to learn more.

Samaritan Fund: A program that connects those who need help to the support they need. We are proud to offer the Samaritan Fund Program. Visit SamaritanFundProgram.com to learn more.

Vālenz Health: We're Vālenz Health, your partner in improving health literacy, reducing plan spend, and delivering high-value healthcare. Visit ValenzHealth.com to learn more.

Imagine360: Imagine360 helps self-funded employers save on healthcare with smarter health plans. Cut expenses by 20-30% with custom solutions. Contact us today at Imagine360.com.

Chapters:

(00:00:00) Intro: Setting a "Circuit Breaker" for Provider Risk

(00:01:21) What is XO Health? (And where the name comes from)

(00:06:51) The Flawed "Unit of Service" Accounting System

(00:08:33) Introducing the "Care Package" (Episodic & Chronic Bundles)

(00:15:37) The Maternity Example: Guaranteed Pricing & Provider Risk

(00:20:13) How Embedded Risk Corridors ("Mini-Specs") Protect Providers

(00:27:14) Value-Based Care: What is it Really?

(00:32:32) Measuring Clinical Outcomes (Experience, Mobility, & A1C)

(00:38:07) Building a High-Performance Network & Incentivizing Steerage

(00:46:13) The Regulatory Tailwinds Pushing Employers to Act

(00:50:35) The "Negative Sum Game": Why Someone Has to Lose

(00:54:05) Closing Thoughts: Flattening Medical Trend

Key Links for Social:

@SelfFunded on YouTube for video versions of the podcast and much more - https://www.youtube.com/@SelfFunded

Listen/watch on Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/1TjmrMrkIj0qSmlwAIevKA?si=068a389925474f02

Listen on Apple Podcasts - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/self-funded-with-spencer/id1566182286

Follow Spencer on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/spencer-smith-self-funded/

Follow Spencer on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/selffundedwithspencer/

"I can't fathom a world where employers are expected to budget and create a plan for their future without understanding what the costs of their healthcare are. Everything needs to be grounded in fact and truth."

Is the traditional insurance network obsolete?

My guest this week is Amy Wykoff, Chief Product Officer at Nomi Health. After starting her career building foundational AI models at IBM Watson, Amy pivoted to healthcare with a massive new challenge: rebuilding the insurance network from scratch.

In this episode, we explore Nomi’s radical approach to the "Network as a Product." Rather than negotiating opaque discounts off inflated Charge Master rates, Nomi negotiates fair, transparent cash rates with providers and guarantees them 100% payment. In return, self-funded employers can offer their employees a true $0 copay, $0 deductible health plan.

We discuss the logistics of building a direct-contracted network across 40 major MSAs, how to overcome "point solution fatigue" by reassembling the vendor stack, and why the ultimate goal of healthcare innovation should be to stop using AI to fight over claims denials - and start using it to improve actual patient care.

Tune in to this week’s Self-Funded to learn exactly how the free market is finally fighting back!

Thank you to our 2026 sponsors!

ParetoHealth: ParetoHealth empowers midsize employers with a long-term solution to reduce volatility and lower overall health benefits costs. Visit https://www.paretohealth.com/fully-insured-vs-self-funding-with-paretohealth-spencer-podcast/?utm_source=youtube&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=SelfFundedwSpencer to learn more.

Samaritan Fund: A program that connects those who need help to the support they need. We are proud to offer the Samaritan Fund Program. Visit SamaritanFundProgram.com to learn more.

Vālenz Health: We're Vālenz Health, your partner in improving health literacy, reducing plan spend, and delivering high-value healthcare. Visit ValenzHealth.com to learn more.

Imagine360: Imagine360 helps self-funded employers save on healthcare with smarter health plans. Cut expenses by 20-30% with custom solutions. Contact us today at Imagine360.com.

Chapters:

• (00:00:00) Intro: IBM Watson & The Origins of Healthcare AI
• (00:02:56) Leaving AI to Build "Network as a Product" at Nomi Health
• (00:05:07) The $0 Copay, $0 Deductible Health Plan
• (00:07:09) Scaling a Direct-Contracted Network to 40 MSAs
• (00:08:44) The Insanity of Traditional Carrier Reimbursement
• (00:13:08) Why Providers Actually Want Transparent Cash Pricing
• (00:15:10) The Economic Drain: How Bad Networks Hurt Local Economies
• (00:19:07) Why Employees Hate Their Health Insurance
• (00:23:44) Reassembling the Vendor Stack: Navigation & TPAs
• (00:28:13) Why Healthcare is Now a CFO Decision
• (00:32:02) "The Tears of Joy": Real Patient Stories
• (00:37:31) The AI War: Why "Bots Fighting Bots" is a Waste of Talent
• (00:43:51) Closing Thoughts: Unbundling the Health Plan

Key Links for Social:

@SelfFunded on YouTube for video versions of the podcast and much more - https://www.youtube.com/@SelfFunded

Listen/watch on Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/1TjmrMrkIj0qSmlwAIevKA?si=068a389925474f02

Listen on Apple Podcasts - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/self-funded-with-spencer/id1566182286

Follow Spencer on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/spencer-smith-self-funded/

Follow Spencer on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/selffundedwithspencer/

"There’s no bad risk, there’s just mispriced risk... we helped one carrier achieve a 29.1% improvement in their loss ratio just through better risk selection."

How do stop-loss carriers and self-funded employers accurately predict which groups are going to run well and which ones are about to see skyrocketing claims?

My guest this week is Ali Panjwani, Founder and CEO of Merit Medicine. Ali transitioned from a career in biotech and pharmaceutical public policy, where he helped price and launch complex, rare-disease drugs, to solving one of the biggest problems in self-funded healthcare: predicting catastrophic risk before it happens.

In this episode, we dive into the evolution of predictive analytics and medical underwriting. Ali explains how Merit Medicine uses AI and access to a massive database (covering 95% of commercial claims in the US) to project a group's healthcare spend using just a simple census file. We discuss why a group that ran poorly last year might actually be a great risk this year, how to prevent underwriters from "playing on tilt," and the ongoing debate over how to finance multi-million-dollar cell and gene therapies.

If you are a benefits consultant, an MGU, or a stop-loss carrier trying to understand how technology is fundamentally changing the way healthcare risk is predicted and priced, this episode is a must-listen.

Thank you to our 2026 sponsors!

ParetoHealth: ParetoHealth empowers midsize employers with a long-term solution to reduce volatility and lower overall health benefits costs. Visit ParetoHealth.com/spencer to learn more.

Samaritan Fund: A program that connects those who need help to the support they need. We are proud to offer the Samaritan Fund Program. Visit SamaritanFundProgram.com to learn more.

Vālenz Health: We're Vālenz Health, your partner in improving health literacy, reducing plan spend, and delivering high-value healthcare. Visit ValenzHealth.com to learn more.

Imagine360: Imagine360 helps self-funded employers save on healthcare with smarter health plans. Cut expenses by 20-30% with custom solutions. Contact us today at Imagine360.com.

Chapters:

• (00:00:00) Intro: The Evolving Landscape of Healthcare Risk
• (00:04:28) Ali's Background: From Biotech to Public Policy
• (00:09:47) The Complexity of Launching & Pricing New Drugs
• (00:13:30) Shifting Focus: Who Actually Pays for Healthcare?
• (00:16:34) The Data Access Problem for Self-Funded Employers
• (00:19:50) How Merit Medicine Predicts Risk with Just a Census File
• (00:23:24) Why Merit Looks Backwards to Predict the Future
• (00:26:27) How Stop-Loss Carriers & MGUs Use Predictive Analytics
• (00:29:41) "There Is No Bad Risk, Only Mispriced Risk"
• (00:33:04) The Danger of Underwriting "On Tilt" (Past vs. Future Claims)
• (00:37:37) Can Predictive AI Help Apply Specific Lasers?
• (00:40:10) The Evolution of Underwriting Tech
• (00:45:04) Proving the Model: A 29.1% Loss Ratio Improvement
• (00:49:10) The Cell & Gene Therapy Debate: Public Pools vs. Financing
• (00:55:14) Closing Thoughts: The Future of Predictable Premiums

Key Links for Social:

@SelfFunded on YouTube for video versions of the podcast and much more - https://www.youtube.com/@SelfFunded

Listen/watch on Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/1TjmrMrkIj0qSmlwAIevKA?si=068a389925474f02

Listen on Apple Podcasts - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/self-funded-with-spencer/id1566182286

Follow Spencer on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/spencer-smith-self-funded/

Follow Spencer on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/selffundedwithspencer/